I thought it was a comedic moment - Spike was not just saying no need to thank me, he was also referring to his motivations, altruism / human behaviour being a theme of the play and the sunject of their ongoing debate....and Hilary's reply was also continuing with that and making fun of Spike a bit for his ego, (if that makes sense) I dont think she was literally thanking god for the sex. That's what I got from it... definitely a loaded moment, the fact that it remains in the mind and leads to questions suggest that too.

The other moment I am still mulling over is when Hilary is in the shower crying and Spike is at the mini bar on his knees and puts his hands together in the prayer position. Would love to hear people's thoughts on that.??!!!??

Also, I am aware I have not done the questionnaire but I am now clearer that I am not #TeamSpike or #TeamHilary. Their debate although so much more.. is fundamentally a science vs religion debate. For me personally science has not explained many things yet including The Hard Problem of coinsciousness or Altruism .. I am not satisfied with any theory yet... but that does not necessarily put those questions in the realms of the mystical. There is more to human experience and human being that appears to be mystical and spiritual (for example expanded consciousness) but perhaps one day science will have a theory for those things too... and it seems consciousness is a very interesting bridge point where certain science and spirituality seem to be on dual sides of the argument. I am kind of interested in quantum theories like this but I'm still not into the duality.

If I am team anything I am #TeamTom! there are things as yet unanswered, or not answered satisfactorily. I don't have a theory or belief but know that reductionist views that shut everything down and reject anything else is not where I am coming from.

Along these lines, everyone needs to check out This new topic :The Hard problem: Tom Stoppard on the limits of what science can expain

Yes Rosie!!!  I an so glad to hear you say that because I thought exactly the same thing when I went to see NTlive......I was certain he hadn't put his hands together in a prayer-llike gesture the first time I saw it and was very struck by how different it made the ending of the scene. I even checked the script to see if it was mentioned and it isn't (it just says something about kneeling in the light from the mini bar). I was really interested to see if he would do it again when I went to see it again on stage earlier this and he did.

If I could ask Damien one question about The Hard Problem it would be if he thought the character of Spike had evolved (pun intended!) during the course of the run.  The first time I saw it I couldn't see any redeeming features in him at all - except maybe occasional flashes of affection towards Hilary, and a rather cruel wit. But after NTlive I definately saw him in a much more sympathetic light and wondered how much that had to do with the intimacy of the camera. But having since seen it again on stage I felt that Spike seemed much less....caustic....much less intent on deliberate offence,  much as he had seemed at NTlive. I have been wondering whether its just my take on him that has changed, or whether it is the way Damien  is playing him, and how much that might be a conscious decision on his part......

I noticed differences too, when I saw the NT live version. I thought it may be because it was closer and could see facial expressions and smaller gestures better but also think characters had evolved as felt more compassion for them.... I love seeing plays and shows a few times through out run if possible just to see how folk develop their characters... Really bugs me if folk see a play locally first night, pay preview prices and moan that it isn't 100% perfect. Thats what preveiws are for, to make changes post seeing audience's reactions to certain things, actors make their characters their own but develops over time.... Would love to see next week but was working... Now have wednesday off.... Hmmmmm

 

domino wrote:

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The other moment I am still mulling over is when Hilary is in the shower crying and Spike is at the mini bar on his knees and puts his hands together in the prayer position. Would love to hear people's thoughts on that.??!!!??

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I have given this some thought, because I didn't think he did it first time I saw it...and then wondered if he did, but I'd somehow missed it!  Obviously it came at the end of the scene where Hilary had asked Spike to say a prayer for her - and he refused - but he adopted this position when Hilary couldn't see him....so it was not meant to be an act to win her favour.  It was visual symbolism, rather than an actual act of prayer.   It bought to my mind what Hilary said to Julia - that everyone should say a prayer every day because it puts people into your thoughts - and this was a visual reference to Spike 'thinking of' Hilary.....which, by Hilary's definition is kind of what a prayer is anyway!

So did we all miss it or did it not happen?

This whole scene was played so differently and completely changed how I felt about Spike. The first time I saw it Spike laughed heartlessly when Hilary told him that she'd had a baby when she was a teenager. This time he was surprised but seemed more sympathetic. The 'prayer' gesture gave a completely different spin on Spike. He also seemed to have second thoughts about saying no to travelling round Italy because he didn't want to hurt her feelings and I didn't think this came across the first time I saw it. Hilary was different in this scene too. She seemed more needy. By the end of the play I thought it was Hilary who was more heartless than Spike which was quite different to the first time I saw it.

-- Edited by RPLovesIpswich on Sunday 24th of May 2015 02:53:53 PM

Really interesting comments about the evolution of the play and Spike.  I only have the NTLive version to go by, (saw it twice, but of course it's the same each time!)  So perhaps that is part of the reason why I am more sympathetic to Spike.  The first impressions from the big group that saw it back in Feb, that fifi was a part of, were so negative that I was worried I had transfered my like of Damien to my like of Spike.  But truly, in the NTLive he doesn't seem like the despicable, heartless guy that I thought I would find.  He's opinionated and honest, to a fault, which makes him come accross as abrasive, but never did I see cruel intent in his actions, particularly toward Hilary.  I see flashes of genuine affection towards her. He tutors her and counsels her at each turn in her career to help her acheive her career goals.  Yes he wanted to get into her pants, but by his admission he would have continued to tutor her (at least 4 times(!), but the way he tenderly affirms "at least" made it sound like he might pursue her forever even if she didn't sleep with him.  Love the way he calls her Hilly, and how he couldn't seem to stop caressing her (all the while she kept arguing with him).  As Rosie points out in Italy, he did try to take into consideration her feelings when he didn't want to go with her to Pisa.  When she told him about the baby, the laugh seemed more incredulous that she had a daughter than to be lauging at her for having one.  Considering her youth, her almost singlemindend obsession with her career and no obvious romantic attachments appart from him, I can see why he would find it hard to believe she had a daughter.  I would have loved to have seen his face that prompted the "don't worry it's not yours" comment by Hilary.  That's the disadvantage of not getting to see it live - I know I would have been staring at Spike, soaking up his actions and reactions the entire time.  

As for the "praying" at the minibar - I had noted it right away.  But I didn't mention it before because I haven't made up my mind about his intent.  First viewing there were so many concepts thrown about that all I could do was soak in the performances and get general impressions on each character.  The science and philosophy behind it I could follow fine, but there really isn't enough time for your brain to really analyze it.  Second time, and after much reflection in the interium, I understood the brilliance of Stoppard's mind.  Each scene is carefully crafted, there are no coincidences as Krohl would say.  The concepts so whittily brandied about are all played out at some point in the play, and from what I can tell each character betrays what they uphold at some point or another.  Hillary plays the prisoner's dilema with Bo, and while she doesn't throw Bo under the bus, her actions aren't as altruistic as she would have you believe.  (she was leaving anyway) Amal concedes that the computer models can't predict stupid human behaviour.  Krohl is an eggoist, but has this whole alruistic research company.  And then there's Spike.  Except for that questionable "prayer", he is the only one that never seems to waver from his convictions.  Science can explain everything, and what it hasn't explained yet, it eventually will.  And yet... is he praying or just in deep thought? There's no mistake that Stoppard purposely chose a minibar as the end of the scene, because that requires Spike to kneel down.  Spike refuses to pray because it would betray all that he stands for, but once she's gone and he's kneeling down he - almost reflexively - brings his hands up as he's thinking about her crying.   I think it's purposely ambiguous.  And as I said, my mind is not made up one way or the other.  From the way he acts towards her throughout, I like to think that his feelings towards her are strong enough that he is moved by her crying enough to maybe send a quick "if there really is a God out there..." type of thought up into the ether.  But in all other actions he never wavers from the conviction that God is a myth, and this one isn't clearcut, so my instinct is that it was a gesture, but not a prayer.  Which is somewhat borne out by the fact that he didn't do it in some of the shows you guys saw and it's not a stage direction in the play text.

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced he didn't do this the first time I saw it. I think the scene ended with Spike looking into the minibar.

Planning to catch last performance so will see what happens then... Last performances are always extra special (in my opinion, but not so sure it being a matinee)

woohoo Kallie. last performance will be wonderful to see. they probably will be emotional. have a great time.

Feels odd to me too, only other last performance of show been too ended on a Sunday afternoon... But hoping that as not an evening I can get a ticket, but it is half term...

Forth in queue, I'm in... 😄😃😜😜😄😄😍😍😄😄

Yay Kallie.  Early bird 'n all that!  Enjoy.