I'm glad to see the back of that tache too whimsyfox! And as for good Hal flashbacks, I'm just going to put this out there but... I think we might well be in store for some good Hal action (if my maths based on complete guesswork is correct!). Well good(ish) anyway...

Again, can't wait for January. And it seems the press stuff is starting to creep out slowly. May there be lots more to come in the next month and a bit!

x

Agreed fifi. While series three is the one that got me totally hooked, it was very, very dark, to the point where I actually grew a bit tired of Mitchell by the end. And then episode eight happened and I cried buckets and missed him! I really, really hope Hal doesn't go the same way. They brought the fun back big time in series four, despite the main story arc being pretty bleak, and it would be a massive shame to lose that.

Luckily, Hal is a very diverse character with the potential for evil through flashbacks. I love when he's good in the present, but I think most of us love a bit of bad Hal too. I'm being greedy though, because I want to see bad Hal and good Hal flashbacks. And I can't wait to see how all three of the HH residents bond and develop.

Basically, I'm just looking forward to series five and can't wait for it to start!

Agreed fifi, that question has now been answered, no big leap forward to Hal being out of the chair when we meet him again in series 5. The rehab my only be glimpsed at though as a 6 episode series needs to get the storylines moving along swiftly. Not that i like thinking along such clinical lines, at all really.


Katy Hal's diversity and polarity are for me what make him the most compelling character yet on BH. Ther are so many shades and it seems limitless possibilties for him...it is as if we have only had Hal on simmer up to this point. And he himself is like a living (not living) pressure cooker... wonder if that tension continues or if we get to see the lid blow right off.....

Not exactly ‘hopes’ but ‘if I were a writer I’d include this’ kind of thing. Amongst other things I would like the following (though I know that it is unlikely we’ll even get a third of this in a six ep run):

Flashbacks to Southend. They’re building a new triad of ghost, werewolf and vampire. It would be nice if the only one of the three who has lived as part of that before reflects on the likes and unlikes of his previous existence (plus, I just found Southend Hal really cute). Even if it’s just a little scene where he reminisces about The Old Times, that would be enough.

More Hal/Cutler. I do believe Cutler represents (on some level) the depths of Hal’s depravity. He was purposefully cruel to Cutler and, as a ‘maker’ and ‘father’ (on some strange level) he pretty much created the monster that Cutler was. I like to think that Cutler had some redemption in him. That maybe he could have taken after his creator in that way too, but most importantly I just want to see them together again. Some of what Hal did was not down to bloodlust but down to control, viciousness and downright sadism. I find it interesting that, not too long after Cutler, Hal started waning and getting tired of it all. I’d love to see what exactly happens when the ‘bad’ Hal starts changing his mindset; starts becoming the ‘good’ Hal (I’d love to write fiction about all of this but I find I work better with a partner and I don’t know may BH fans).

Laid-back Hal. I love how he’s edgy and anxious but I’d love to see him and Tom (and maybe even Alex) just chilling out and actually having a laugh. So, I’d like to see they as people rather than just as vampire, werewolf and ghost. I get the impression this will be quite an intense season so that kind of balance is always required. And I’d love to see Hal smiling. He’s got such a sweet smile.

I’d like to see conflicted, caring Hal. Because, lets face it, he does conflicted so well but as much as he tries to hide it he does caring well too. The smile he offered Leo when he was lying in that bed. The little nod of acknowledgement to Alex and the soft promise that he’d help her. Quietly putting his arm around Pearl when she was upset. He’s lovely.

Pre-vampire. It sounds like he had a pretty tough life. Wholly unpleasant. I’d like to see a bit of that. What was the ‘human’ Hal like? Was he damaged and unbearably sad? Was he hopeful? Was he anxious and torn? Was he desperate for love, acceptance and belonging? Was he always OCD/stubbornly superstitious? I like to think that they take whatever afflictions they had in life (ie asthma, OCD) with them when they change. That they keep some of their vulnerabilities.

Hal vs Monks. I’d like some hints as to what happened in the nine months he was held captive by crucifixes. Was he bad Hal at the time? Was he good Hal? What happened when he got out? Of course, my visual mind sees this intercut with the months he held a poor girl captive and drank from her (I think this would be a killer scene if you had evil Lord Harry doling out selfish cruelty to the poor girl whilst Good Hal suffers the same fate with the monks) but I know that will never happen. Will just have to imagine it.

Ah there’s so much. This is just a mere few.

All fabulous stuff, RougeSang. Although I'd say Mitchell definitely stepped over that edge with the Box Car massacre. I don't know when Aidan decided to leave, and if sending Mitchell over the edge was with Aidan's departure in mind, or if the show runners had a path of redemption planned. Would have been interesting to see them bring him back from that!

I too would love to see more of young Leo and Pearl, especially in the early days of Leo and Hal's friendship. "Well, you see, he kept me chained in a filthy cellar and made me kill, for sport, until the day came when he decided he wanted a change of scene. So he freed me with the understanding that it was now my job to hide him from his now ex vampire friends and protect him from himself." Only Leo was far too much of a gentleman to actually say all that. But at first, he must have wondered what he'd gotten himself into.

I like the idea that Cutler was Hal's last straw. Perhaps being corrupted brought out/inflated Cutler's ambition and his actions started an upturn for Hal.

I ended up thinking that pre-vamp Hal ended up wanting it, perhaps welcoming it, happily adapted to being a monster. Going by the prequel, power, strength and immortality awash in blood would have attracted - due to tragic reasons, of course! - human Hal. Actually, that could be a way to have Hal at this very worst - as a human! - in flashback - and being a vampire makes him strive to be a better human than he was ever able to be before.

And any throw away comments about being imprisoned by monks is crying for more attention. Is this monk sect still around? Hunting vampires?

And I wonder if he ever had a Daisy?

RougeSang/UJ - I have really enjoyed reading through this thread. Thank you!  To add my own humble thoughts....

The problem with a tv series (compared to eg. a novel) is that it is ongoing and fluid, and the writers have far less control over what happens (much like real life!). If they don't know whether the show will be recommissioned, or this particular chapter will be the end of the story - or even if all of the cast will return, and characters may have to be 'discarded' - it is inevitable that inconsistancies will slip in (although some are unforgivable - toxic werewolf blood....after 3 series....really?!!).  The result being that I constantly find myself wondering whether the writers are even aware of some of the details that I obsess over!

The box tunnel 'incident' was the end of the line for Mitchell (no pun intended!), and I couldn't see how he could come back from that. But if Aidan hadn't left, and Mitchell hadn't died, my faith in the show is such that I would undoubtedly have happily accepted whatever redemption he was offered, and my love would've been undiminished. But then there wouldn't have been Hal....and I am rather fond of Hal (!!!) so ultimately I think it was all for the best!

I have found myself speculating recently about 'Lord Harry'.  The fact that we first heard this title from Fergus means that most of us (I think?) have been assuming that this is a title from a 'bad Hal' cycle, seemingly confirmed by Hal's 'don't....seriously, don't' when Tom and Annie teased him about it.  Seeing that (rather wonderful) pic of Hal in uniform....with the little frown....first sparked this thought (I do realise that the uniform and the title don't necessarily go together) and the clip in the trailer of bewildered hal in the same uniform has bought it back to me.  OOOOOhhh......flashbacks, flashbacks, flashbacks......I love that everyone seems so desperate to learn more of Hal's past!  And there is just soooo much of it to rifle through.

Hal certainly suggests to Leo that he was willingly turned, because his human life had been so hard, but I have a bit of trouble getting my head round the whole 'willing victim' thing.  I know Bram Stoker's 'Dracula' well (having written a dissertation about it while at college)....but have virtually no other knowledge of vampire lore (no...I've not read any other vamp books, or watched vamp films.....I'm more of a fantasy girl at heart!) and for Dracula the only choice is his.....he chooses a victim, and, as he drains their life away, over time, they eventually become a vampire. I also wonder, no matter how vivid his 'human' memories are, how great an influence 20 odd years of life can have over 500 of undeath. 

Although I complain a lot about characters being killed off, and would ultimately love to see more of many of them (being human has created some of the best tv characters ever only to kill them - Daisy, Cutler, McNair, Mr Snow, Daisy, Wyndam, Tully, Ivan, Daisy.. etc. etc. - not to even mention the main cast....) I do find myself wanting to move forward with the story.  If the series was 13 eps long, then there would be time to investigate some of these relationships and I would love to know more about Leo and Pearl and, more especially, Cutler....but feel that the series must move on and fanfic does a good job for me of filling some of those gaps!

Just one last point before I shut up.  About Hal and Alex.  Considering the circumstances under which Alex came into the series, I think it would be a little strange if there wasn't any hint of an attraction between them.  If Alex hadn't died, I would've enjoyed watching their relationship unfold, but now that she is one of the 'trinity' I hope that a strong friendship is what develops.  Hints from the BBC Media interviews suggest that their path will be rocky.  I was never sold on Mitchell and Annie as an item but I loved George and Nina together (although I always secretly wished that Nina hadn't been turned) and would love Allison to come back to the series, but not move in. 

I think the series should be based on 3 friends who share a house....who all happen to be supernatural.

 

Just read through this and I'm not even sure most of it is relevant to the topic.

I'm sorry....i'll stop now!

 

-- Edited by fifi on Saturday 26th of January 2013 01:06:48 PM

UJ i actually replied to the wrong post. I was looking at the last post in page 1, haha, which said that they wanted to see Hal kill. It probably made absolutely no sense in the middle of this discussion but I'm absolutely useless at forums, hence taking so long to post in this one, and I do get a little muddled when there are more pages than one.

I agree that there is no sadism in a lion - but it really is nature. If you're looking at bloodlust as part of a vampire's nature then to abstain is going against nature in a lot of ways. The sadistic element is one thing but the natural element is another. So we could say that their nature is to kill and so expecting them not to is expecting them to go against nature. The WAY in which they kill is something that can be down to choice. It seems that Hal was sadistic in his 'bad' days. What he did to Cutler and his wife was more than just a vampire acting on instinct and nature, but then this is a vampire who has been 'at this' for centuries. Is this where boredom comes in?

Killer whales have been known to 'play' with their food. Cats do it too. I suppose in some way we could look at the sadism of a vampire as just that. An animal playing with its food. On the other hand, if we look at the curse of vampirism as a 'demon' of some sort being instilled into the soul of a man in order to animate it we could also say that it's just demonic nature. That killing and sadism are all part of the monster's inherent persona.

There's the other argument too, the separation of 'man' and 'monster'. They do this in vampire shows a fair bit. They imply that the man and the monster are two seperate yet intertwining entities. In that case, can the man really be held responsible for the actions of the monster that might be part of him but isn't actually him at all? It's a fine line.

With Mitchell and the Box Car 20 I think that the monster won out. That, in that moment, the 'man' just wasn't able to contain it. He was the addict who had over indulged and the 'high' was controlling him. The monster within was truly unleashed and unable to be brought back into check. He didn't have the stability around him to stay on the straight and narrow and he just momentarily lost it.

But...he seemed to lose it a lot. Lauren, for one thing, was a 'recent' death. So, even whilst he'd been living with Annie and George he STILL couldn't keep it together enough to stop killing. Was he just a weak man? Some addicts cannot hold off. Others can, with support. Is this the difference between Hal and Mitchell, i.e. one does well if he's got people around him to keep him safe yet the other simply cannot hold off on his cravings?

-- Edited by RougeSang on Sunday 27th of January 2013 10:35:53 AM

Excellent points, fifi, especially regarding how much influence can twenty odd years have over an immortal life. But then, the programming of those formative years really stay with us! It also has one hell of a knock on effect to one of life's biggest questions: can we change? Going by the immortals, it looks like we could all do with as much extra time as possible.

I suddenly want to see Hal on a quiz show. Hey, the gang always need the extra money. Hal would know so much, thanks to first hand experience. But he'd be frustrated as his version of events aren't necessarily the accepted version.

I assumed 'Lord' was a title that went with being an Old One. And once you get to Mr Snow's rank, you just don't bother with the trimmings. It's possible Hal inveigled his way into a noble family, took over and started keeping the village girls chained up in the wine cellar, and got to be a Lord that way. All an aristo is after all is the descendant of the bloke with the biggest hammer.

I've tried to make my peace with the nonsensical retcon of suddenly toxic werewolf blood. I ignored it to the extent that it took me three viewings to understand how Hal even got the burn on his arm! Anyway, watching season three again last year, once Herrick tells Mitchell that having one's head ripped off by a werewolf doesn't have to stay fatal, I realised they had taken away the big threat werewolves pose to vampires. Appreciating why the retcon happened helped me make some sort of peace with it, even though I still found myself cringing. It's a rare ball dropped by the show runners - ideally they should have fixed the Herrick scene - but hey, nobody's perfect!

I agree about the story moving on. Seeing the old faces is a nice treat, as long as their return is relevant, and not just for the sake of it. Seeing Adam again was great, and they needed a supernatural for the succubi to find happiness - aww! I was always in two minds about Herrick's return. Hey, it was great seeing him again but what a cop out! But I did appreciate what his return meant to the gang, especially to the falling Mitchell.

I think I'd have liked Nina to have stayed human. Her being turned, it would have been inevitable, but it would have been nice if one of the gang was simply human, at least for a while!

Vampire lore varies from region to region, and often from story to story. Any life force sucking creature shares the vampiric symbolism, so there's plenty of scope to play with. As to how Hal was seduced, how willing he was, how much was he on the look out for a new life, new opportunities ... We'll have to wait and see!

Wrong post, right post, still excellent points, RougeSang!

Mitchell didn't seem to have the strength to deal, did he. But Ivan was an Old One and he couldn't hack it either. Maybe he had never tried to go bloodless before. And maybe the older one is, especially without any practice, just makes it harder. As for Hal, his fearsome reputation perhaps suggests that he went to such extremes, was the worse of the worse, and so when he goes on the wagon, again, its just another extreme. I think what he said to Mr Snow is key - he has to prove he's strong enough to do it, that he can beat his own nature. He wont kill himself to protect others, not Hal, but he has to beat what he is. He has to beat himself! What a complex little sausage he is.

As to what the vampire actually is - a blood sucking demon, or something else - and how one copes ... How we wallow in our own base instincts or reach for the ideal our intellect leads us to ... Well, that's the show! I've always thought it cheeky that the title encapsulates the very essence of all art!

From the brothel to plague pit digger and literal refuse collector, Hal certainly knew hardship. And that's the kind of life one vows never ever to go back to, which may have been Mitchell's issue. As an NCO in WW1, I doubt he came from a privileged background. Once he became a vampire, then he got a taste of the high life. It's being a vampire that spoils a person! And maybe Ivan was a self made gent, same as Hal. And yet Mitchell tried. He was the force that insisted they have neighbours round and be part of the community. And then he failed, and the enormity of his failure prevented him from reaching out to his friends. Maybe Hal couldn't face his friends either when he fell, so he fell and fell, until he couldn't stand it anymore and reached out again, to the guy he had chained in the wine cellar. Now, he has friends who can catch him and tie him to a chair before things get worse. It sounded like Pearl and Leo caught him too, whether it was blood or the kia-ora that set him off. Hey, it's all in the timing!

Lol! I never thought about the Kia-Ora ad in that context. Of course, now it's making me imagine Hal trying to tempt Tom into drinking the dreaded substance. "Join me, Tom! Join me in this glass of heaven and hell on earth!" Naughty boy.

Good points about how immature Mitchell seemed, impulsive. I did find him immature for a guy who was more than a hundred years old, man, boy and vampire. Maybe once he was dry he resorted to his human age? A young man fresh from the trauma of battle, wanting to life life, rather than death, to the full.

And oh yes, a vampire takes all their human traits with them. The levels of horror Michaela will sink to with her poetry can only be feared.

I wonder how many of our hopes and fears for Hal will be realised in series 5?

tonight we find out!